Curse

TheRaven · Jan 12, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

I believe the original question was "What factors are to blame for the decline of PUG's?" Well here's 1 factor that I don't believe has been mentioned yet.....Runners!

Last night I was in Amnoon Oasis and I really wanted a pug group to just run to Augury Rock with. I didn't want a run, I was playing a lvl 20 Warrior who is more than capable of getting there on her own. However all I saw in town was....

"LFR full desert, willing to pay 1k"
"Pro Runner...full desert tour 5k"
"Running desert...300g per stop. 7 stops total!!"
"Ned a runner to next mission. Pro's only please. PM me"
"Running desert 3/6...4k"
"Running to Augury Rock for tips...4/6"

Not one person in that town wanted to join a group of hearty adventurers and try to run/walk to the next town or mission site on their own. Everyone either wanted a quick and easy, no work involved, run or was there to make money.

Now don't take me the wrong way. I have absolutely nothing against runners. I've done a few runs myself for gold and it's a legitimate in-game business. People who are asking for runs have many reasons for doing so, some of them are legit reasons and some are pure laziness. I'm not going to judge anyone's reasons for asking for a run.

But, some of those runnee's might have joined a PUG instead of paying a runner if there were several PUG groups in town to choose from or if there weren't so many runners competing for business. It's just one more factor to consider.

Ninna · Jan 12, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I agree

during the 1st 3 months of Prophecies - I never used Runners

I travelled with PUGs

now,
I use Runners all the time like a Taxi service

Blackhawk · Jan 12, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Most of the PuG's I've grouped with have generally been OK and some of the people ended up on my friends list.

I'm quite prepared to let people go with what they feel comfortable with build wise as at the end of the day it's just a game and thus they can play the game how they want.

Obviously if the builds really not any good for that particular mission/quest or area, rather than kick them and rubbish the build I'd ask the rest of the group for suggestions to help the guy/girl out as they may have only been playing a short while and not quite be as knowledgeable as some other players.

I'm always experimenting with builds with Heroes/Hench and then with real people and I'll inform the people in the group of this before starting any mission/quest unlike some people who will spam their skills to keep the leader happy then change the build just before starting.

I think people should stop relying on heroes and actually ASK people in the towns/outposts if they'd like some company doing whatever or just offer to help out.

I play a lot of WoW as well as GW and I've found that most people in WoW are quite prepared to help each other out even if it's just for 5 minutes to complete or share an objective, or even while passing will stop and give your character a buff or even just to have a chat and offer advice which sadly seems to have gone down the toilet recently in GW.

You still get the odd idiots whose primary objective is just to piss everyone off but thats unavoidable in any game like this, even more so when its "free".

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 12, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You dont need to be in a PUG to socialise in GWs.

QFT

As for Runners, well there havnt changed much, few people used to PUG to go places with the exception of a few trips such as To Kryta. etc. Ive Never Ever seen PUGs saying LFP to go to Magumma Slade, or LFP to go to Beetletum etc.
In fact ive made pugs due to running. I met a good friend of mine from running him, and now we join up and play together very often and i even moved my 2nd account to his guild, so if anything that run led to more Guild PUGing which is the best way to PUG.

I have found another killer of mission/Quest PUGs ------ PUG and solo Farmers.

Most Solo farmers like to play through the game to a point where they can farm and then they stop doing quests and mission instead they just Farm, and farm some more, and then farm even more. (this is especially true for Warriors and Monks) why team up with people and do something fun when u can farm!?

Most PUG farmers, are almost as bad, they get to the point they want to farm, and they all mob into the same few places and then search for each other so they can farm those precious Greens etc. People looking to do quests and mission in the same places are quickly overwhelmed with LFP to Farm x. And fine most people there havnt done any missions/quests and are only there to farm. So then people find it a hard time to find people that actually want to do the missions since most non farmers avoid these areas due to the huge farm trafficing. SF and the warcamp was the epitony of this problem (possibly still is but im not sure since i havnt been there for quite some time)

Vahn Roi · Jan 12, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

the numbers are dropping due to many things, all of which have most likely been touched on this topic.

Still, I feel the introduction of heroes as well as the improvement to henchmen AI is a very VERY big contributor to poor pug quality and the falling numbers of said pugs.

Str0b0 · Jan 12, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I think it is just a marked lack of decency amongst the player base that has lead to the decline of PUGs. Heroes are simply an answer to this problem and not the problem itself. For a long time before Heroes were introduced into the game your average player would rather have ebola than go with a PUG. Point in Case, The other night I'm trying to do a mission, I forget the name you know where you have to kill Varesh, anyway I get into this PUG and this guy is whining because we don't have two player monks. There is only one monk in the town anyway and he is AFK. So I say," There is no sense in being defeatist about it. We haven't even tried yet" You know just a moral boosting thing, a can do attitude. This guy starts calling me all kinds of morons and idiots and swears defeatist isn't a word( it is but that's less of an issue about PUGs and more about the educational system that churned this individual out.) I try my best to put up with it but in the end it's just too much of an aggravation. I end up having to leave the group since I play for fun not to get frustrated. I think if people were just more decent to one another on this game then things would be better. Unfortunately a few hundred miles and the anonymity of a screen name turns people into jerks because I know that had we been face to face this individual would never have said such a thing.

TheRaven · Jan 12, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Ok, my last word on the subject. I love being in PUG's. I'm not an expert player, but I'm at least competent. I'm not a jerk and I promise I won't cuss you out even if you do something incredibly lame-brained and stupid. I'm a responsible adult and while I may have to "BRB 1 min", I won't abandon you in the middle of a mission.

I definitely guilty of good-natured griping during a mission but I won't fly off the handle. I'm also opinionated and don't have a problem voicing suggestions before we start that I think might improve the party, (Uh, could you dump the 3rd Assassin and get a Monk?) but if I'm not the party leader (and I prefer not to be) I'll defer to whoever is.

If this appeals to you, add me to your friend's list and I'll join you for a quest or 2 if I have that area unlocked and I'm available. I'm usually online in the evenings after 8pm EST for an hour or 2. I haven't finished exploring any of the continents so if you ask for help at any of the endgame areas, I can't do it yet. (Currently at the desert entrance in Tyria and Boreas Seabed in factions. NF I've barely touched)

My warrior is The Scarlet Raven. Ranger is Cheyenne Raven. My other characters haven't explored enough area to be helpful. I look forward to PUGGing with some of you.

Zephyr Cloud · Jan 12, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

First I would like to say "wow" to all of you who have claimed to never have had a bad PUG experience. You are truely blessed in your guild wars life.

I would also like to say that a PUG group is whatever it's made to be. It's true a lot of PUG groups are very focused on some goal and that it's pretty much about mutal exploitation (as somebody put it). Not always the case though. A lot comes down to who's leading the group.

When I'm the leader I am generally quite easy going and open about who we take. I try to be as relaxed as possible about people's builds, because I love toying with builds and the only way to really try them out is in a real situation so I try not to pressure people into adopting a cookie-cutter build if they are trying something of their own. Sometimes I don't care about succeeding so much as just seeing what they can do with their setup. If you fail you fail, just do it again after tweaking some skills for the situation.

Nothing irks me more than groups that don't accept anything less that cookie-cutter. Anybody who's tried to get in a group at Tombs of the Primeval Kings as an elementalist or mesmer probably knows what I'm talking about. Basically the popular B/P setup doesn't have an ele or a mesmer in it, so people don't even consider those professions when forming groups. It's sad, because although the B/P setup is very effective, it is by no means the only way to do it. People would rather just farm their yummy greens as quickly as possible with as little group skill needed as possible rather than try something new.

As for running, it is true that you don't see a lot of PUGs form to fight to a place. That is sad, because it can be quite fun! You know most the time you're fighting in an explorable area is to do some quest. When you fight to get from point A to B you get to usually explore some areas you've ever been to before or otherwise wouldn't really be fighting in. It can be great! One of my most memorable experiences in the game was fighthing with a group of people from Beacons Perch to Droks. It took hours and we had many moments where we nearly wiped. I was monking for the group, and was thankfully somehow able to avoid dying so I could res the team after these near-wipes. The two best parts of the whole trip though was watching our two tanks, for two different reasons.

The first tank was lvl 20 W/Mo. When we first started out he was definately the non-beliving pessimist of the group. He was like "we're never going to make it past Lornar" etc etc. When we would almost wipe he would say "yep... told ya" but then we would somehow pull out of it and continue. Anyway, by the time we made it through DD and past the trolls in Snake Dance, he had a total change of heart. He suddenly was like "omg... we might actually make it!" and then he was totally the optimist and encouraging everybody to push on and complimenting the group. It was one of the finer moments I have witnessed in any group, especially a PUG group.

The second tank was a lvl 13 W/E. That's right, level 13. He was awesome to watch because although he was lvl 13 (and thus I didn't expect him to do very well against the high lvl baddies) he was actually probably the better of our two tanks. He really showed some skill and it was him that truely convinced me that the W/E build can be awesome. That was probably the coolest part of our group... we were a random mix of classes of different levels (most were < lvl 20) and we pushed through one of the hardest stretches of the game without anybody quitting or giving up, even after multiple near-wipes.

Just thought I would share that with you guys, since I will admit it is a rare PUG experience.

birdfoot · Jan 12, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The game is close to, if not over, 2 years old. Its been around a far while now, so its age has nothing to do with it. PUGs have deteriated because in those 2 years, PUG attitudes have progressively got worse to the point of unnacceptable.

I'm sure not everyone has started GW since Prophecies days (stand-alone comes to mind), and yes, Nightfall (which introduced heroes) is 2 months old. Btw, has PUG attitudes gotten worse to the point of unacceptable? My experience with PUGs aren't entirely very good, but it's abit like all forums I've been to; you see some good posters and pretty bad ones too. That doesn't stop me from posting though. Is it that bad now? Sorry, I've stopped playing GW already so I'm not aware of current situations.

While I agree that heroes do kinda make it more convenient to engage a mission/quest by oneself and thus making it a trend for more players to not join PUGs; I don't like to attribute this entirely to the introduction of heroes. Sure it does impact PUGs, but it's more of the mindset of the majority of players altogether, there are players who rather play on their own for instance. In addition, the more a new player gets face to face with players with poor attitude, the more repulsive they'll be to PUGs. For veteran players, they'd most likely have a taste of what bad PUGs are already. In most cases, the veteran players would rather just hero/hench since they already have competence in the game; the rest would probably still wanna PUG since the reward in experience of playing with a good PUG is far greater than hero/hench. I think it's just karma, the community plays a large part for the problem it has today; on the other hand, GW PvE doesn't provide much rewards for multiplaying. Anyway, as long as the newer players can get to experience good PUGing, I'm sure they'll welcome the idea of PUGing on the whole. What I think will help is that the old time PUGers help to provide this experience to the newer players by leading the party and showing the ropes whenever you get to PUG (and try to be patient).

Just to summarise, what I feel are obstacles to PUGing since the release of Nightfall are:

- Convenience of heroes
- Player's own mindset/tolerance
- Other player'(s) behavior
- Community being build/profession biased
- Community spread too thin over the campaigns

Obstacles I had observed before Nightfall:

- Player's own mindset/tolerance
- Other player'(s) behavior
- Community being build/profession biased

Before Nightfall, players were forced to PUG for later missions and I didn't think that was a good idea either. Honestly speaking, I feel ANet could make explorable areas more solo-able and simply remove henchies. And when it comes to quest/missions, players will need to at least have 1 other real player to complete it. Why I say this is because some players like to go on a single adventure in the explorable area; but when it comes to a quest/mission, there are common grounds for different players to work together.

yasmina · Jan 12, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

The reason for the downfall of PUGs plain and simple are the "People". Everyone can blame all kinds of issues with the game but when it comes right down to it look at yourself before you blame others. When the game was in beta phase and then released no one had a problem with finding a PUG, people where fairly new to the game learning there class and learning the game in its fullest. No one was denied a PUG or asked if you have this skill or this build because no one knew what would benefit them in the long run it was all trial and error.

Now-a-days no one wants to take a chance with a class or build if it does not fit into what someone has posted on a forum or wiki to beat a mission or camp out for a certain item so this goes right back to the People not the game mechanics. I do have to admit that certain updates to the game for the good and others for the worse but you have to just work around it. With the realease of Nightfall the devs have made certain classes almost no point in playing like the Sin and Rit, I have yet to see any drops for them of use or even armor which the only point to bring them over is to get the new skills because with the PUGs people are using you will never get a group and that is why the put the heros in to give those classes that get singled out still away of playing the game.

I could go on and on about this topic but I am not people just need to look at themselves and see what they are turning this game into.

Tommy · Jan 12, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

no need pugs

good players can beat everything and anything with Heroes

1 Hero=1000Pugs

Burst Cancel · Jan 12, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

What if that random R/E has been doing that his/her entire time of playing, effectively.
You are disagreeing with his/her method, when it has worked for them. You tell them to change it and they wont. That is disobedience and not a lack of intelligence.

There are two separate issues here that you are trying to address with a single explanation:
1) The player is ineffective
2) The player refuses to change their build/playstyle to become effective

You cannot combine #1 and #2 and then say that it's all a matter of disobedience. Only #2 is disobedience; #1 is incompetence/idiocy. Taking the above example of the flare-spamming R/E, the fact that the ranger is actually using such a build is a result of incompetence, regardless of whether anyone has told her to change it or not. If she then joins a party and is told to use a different build, but refuses to do so, that refusal is a problem of disobedience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

Again, the intonation of your post points to the fact that you do not agree with the skills being brought and their use. Not a lack of intelligence, but a lack of doing what you say and think is right. This basically boils down to a lack of obedience.

This is a patently ludicrous claim, because it is based on the false assumption that skill choice and usage is a matter of opinion. An R/E flare-spammer is a bad build not because people disagree with it, but because it is significantly less effective than other builds. This is fact, not opinion. It isn't a matter of agreeing or disagreeing over skills, it's a matter of effective builds vs. ineffective builds. The use of ineffective builds, or the ineffective use of good builds, indicates incompetence.

gene terrodon · Jan 12, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

There are two separate issues here that you are trying to address with a single explanation:
1) The player is ineffective
2) The player refuses to change their build/playstyle to become effective

You cannot combine #1 and #2 and then say that it's all a matter of disobedience. Only #2 is disobedience; #1 is incompetence/idiocy. Taking the above example of the flare-spamming R/E, the fact that the ranger is actually using such a build is a result of incompetence, regardless of whether anyone has told her to change it or not. If she then joins a party and is told to use a different build, but refuses to do so, that refusal is a problem of disobedience.

This is a patently ludicrous claim, because it is based on the false assumption that skill choice and usage is a matter of opinion. An R/E flare-spammer is a bad build not because people disagree with it, but because it is significantly less effective than other builds. This is fact, not opinion. It isn't a matter of agreeing or disagreeing over skills, it's a matter of effective builds vs. ineffective builds. The use of ineffective builds, or the ineffective use of good builds, indicates incompetence.

Sounds too me as if you want to tell people how to play.
A person may play certain builds because of diffrent reasons.
A seasoned vet playing a weak build for the challenge or a relatively inexperienced player playing with the best available (I have played with someone who had no clue Elite skills existed).
Idiocy is based on opinion.
In your opinion, a person playing a build YOU deem ineffective is an idiot. That is a judgement based on your opinion that the build is ineffective.
Your counter, that the community or previous experience validates your stance and makes it fact in flawed. Flawed because each experience and person is unique. What failed for one may work for another.
The above argument is a matter of opinion.
The issue isn't bad builds or incompetent players.
It is the broad generalization, by you and a large number of players in the GW community, that most everyone else, except yourself, is an incompetent, idiotic player and does not deserve to be in the same instance as yourself.
Until that attitude changes, PUGs will continue to be few and far between and on the verge of extenction, save a handful of difficult missions or elite areas.

Coloneh · Jan 12, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

why do you say 'blame'? PUGs are horrible. having heros allows you to take 2-3 guildies and their heros and do almost anything.

Mr_T_bot · Jan 12, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

There are two separate issues here that you are trying to address with a single explanation:
1) The player is ineffective
2) The player refuses to change their build/playstyle to become effective

Effectiveness is subjective. I don't like playing with other people like this because they are elitist asshats and think they know how to play every build better than me.

Burst Cancel · Jan 12, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

Sounds too me as if you want to tell people how to play.

I have never cared about how other people play the game, provided they are not playing with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

A person may play certain builds because of diffrent reasons.
A seasoned vet playing a weak build for the challenge or a relatively inexperienced player playing with the best available (I have played with someone who had no clue Elite skills existed).
Idiocy is based on opinion.
In your opinion, a person playing a build YOU deem ineffective is an idiot. That is a judgement based on your opinion that the build is ineffective.

No, a build can be deemed ineffective via any number of relevant criteria and is not a matter of opinion. The most obvious example is an empty skillbar - essentially the least effective build in the game. If you argue that builds are a matter of opinion, then all builds must be equally effective from an objective standpoint. In order for your argument to be valid, you would have to be able to prove conclusively that the effectiveness of an empty skillbar as compared to say, a ZB-prot monk, is a matter of opinion only.

Are you going to argue that a monk with an empty skillbar is effective?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

Your counter, that the community or previous experience validates your stance and makes it fact in flawed. Flawed because each experience and person is unique. What failed for one may work for another.

(emphasis mine)

I never make this claim; don't put words in my mouth. In fact, I argue almost the exact opposite: that the opinions of "the community" and personal experience are irrelevant. Given a set of criteria, you can make objective comparisons between skills and sets of skills. Given a particular situation, you can make objective decisions about most effective skill usage. A teammate about to be hit by a boss monster is far better served by Prot Spirit than by Shield of Absorption. This isn't an opinion, it's hard fact.

The "it worked for me" argument is invalid when making objective comparisons of effectiveness. The fact that something worked does not say anything about whether something else could work better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

The above argument is a matter of opinion.
The issue isn't bad builds or incompetent players.
It is the broad generalization, by you and a large number of players in the GW community, that most everyone else, except yourself, is an incompetent, idiotic player and does not deserve to be in the same instance as yourself.
Until that attitude changes, PUGs will continue to be few and far between and on the verge of extenction, save a handful of difficult missions or elite areas.

You're putting words in my mouth again. The only generalization I make is that people using ineffective builds are incompetent. There is a large logical gap between what I said and what you are claiming I said. This gap can be bridged only if you assume that, "most everyone else, except myself, uses ineffective builds". You are more than welcome to make that assumption if you want to, but I certainly don't make that assumption in my post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

Effectiveness is subjective. I don't like playing with other people like this because they are elitist asshats and think they know how to play every build better than me.

The only cases where effectiveness is subjective is when effectiveness doesn't matter. If you want DPS for example, you can objectively prove that build A has more DPS than build B, and is therefore more effective. If you want to select a healing spell for a given situation, you can objectively compare healing efficiency of all healing spells in that situation, and pick out the most effective one.

You imply that these "elitist asshats" only *think* they know how to play every build better than you. What if they actually *do* know how to play every build better than you? I see that word "elitist" or "elitism" thrown around everywhere, and in most cases it's completely unwarranted. What people often see as elitism is a simple case of someone actually being better at the game than them, and acting accordingly.

For instance, HA "elitism" is an extremely popular scrub complaint. Someone who has a lot of HA experience and consistently wins Halls is flat-out better than someone who's never stepped foot in HA before. But the newbie thinks he's not getting into groups because the better players are 'elitist'. No, they aren't. They're just better than you (fact, not opinion), and you're not good enough to roll with them yet.

Hell Marauder · Jan 13, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Being "better" at game doesn't mean having "fun" at playing the game. Playing effeciently and having fun don't necessarily go together, your "drill sergeant" attitude may actually have negative effect on the team.
Ask yourself which is more fun, being drafted into an army or joining a carefree adventurers' group? The former can accomplish goals in an efficient manner, latter doesn't have to. Sure, everyone wants missions completed and having fun at doing it, but mission completion=ending game's life for you sooner whereas having fun playing doesn't.

The best PUG's are made up with players with similar experiences and low expectation, best examplified by golden days of PUG's right after Prophecy's release when no one knows what to expect or how to play "efficiently".
In GW, it's often the attitude of veterans who are ruining experience of newcomers, pve or pvp. Winning in a computer game means nothing, having a good time playing means everything.

Burst Cancel · Jan 13, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Being "better" at game doesn't mean having "fun" at playing the game. Playing effeciently and having fun don't necessarily go together, your "drill sergeant" attitude may actually have negative effect on the team.
Ask yourself which is more fun, being drafted into an army or joining a carefree adventurers' group? The former can accomplish goals in an efficient manner, latter doesn't have to. Sure, everyone wants missions completed and having fun at doing it, but mission completion=ending game's life for you sooner whereas having fun playing doesn't.

Fun and effectiveness are unrelated. Being effective doesn't prevent you from having fun, just as it doesn't guarantee you having fun. The two simply have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Furthermore, fun is a sticky topic because, unlike effectiveness, fun *is* entirely subjective. Everyone plays games for different reasons and in different ways, but they must all be having fun or they would stop playing. You can't say that X is more fun than Y with any credibility, because you can only speak for yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

The best PUG's are made up with players with similar experiences and low expectation, best examplified by golden days of PUG's right after Prophecy's release when no one knows what to expect or how to play "efficiently".

(emphasis mine)

No, the best PUGs are made by players with similar experiences and similar expectations (not low expectations). The so-called Golden Days of Prophecies were the result of a relatively small and immature (in terms of game experience, not real-life maturity) playerbase. When everyone is new to the game, it's easier for people to get along with each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

In GW, it's often the attitude of veterans who are ruining experience of newcomers, pve or pvp. Winning in a computer game means nothing, having a good time playing means everything.

It's not the attitude of one group or the other that's specifically to blame. The problem is that many players are simply incompatible. For instance, I don't think you would have much fun playing with me, and I certainly wouldn't have any fun playing with you. I'm not basing this on playing ability (since I know nothing about your playing ability relative to mine), but rather on our opposing viewpoints of the game.

Your final statement is an excellent example of my point: to you, winning is secondary to having fun, but to others, winning and having fun are exactly the same thing.

Haggard · Jan 13, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Unfortunately I dont see it being fixed because most people who play guildwars are probably males between 13-25. Most of which are teenagers who play online games because they havent learnt how to socialise probably and they find it easier to talk to people online. Meaning they dont have to look people in the face and feel the consiquences if their rude to them. I would bet that most rude players in GWs, wouldnt speak the same way to you face-to-face down the pub.

I fit the stereotype exactly, yet I never yell at people in game, and try not to be rude almost indefinately.

Matsumi · Jan 13, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Well, I don't think running around calling everyone elitist, arrogant, morons is gonna help the pug numbers increase. Name calling usually has a negative effect on people LFG, even if you have your kid doing it for you. I'm sure there are more people out there that like PuGs, but there's also some that don't. Plain and simple. I wouldn't say that they think they're better than you, just that it's what they prefer. That's what's great about online games, you can find other people with like mindsets (guild, friends, random pug), to go out and accomplish a goal together. In guild wars, if that isn't possible, there's heroes/hench.